以下為英文原文：

Guancha: How would you assess the present state and future potential of the China South Africa relationship?

Ambassador Cwele: Thank you very much. As the South African ambassador to the People's Republic of China, it’s really been a privilege for me, because our relations matches our young country. We only established the diplomatic relations in 1998 after our freedom. Because it's only after our freedom that President Nelson Mandela changed the apartheid policy and recognized People's Republic of China as the sole representative of Chinese people. So we move away from the relations with Taiwan. It was on Taiwan and Hong Kong, and then Hong Kong was reincorporated.

So when we established these relations, the fundamental thing was that our political relations were long established. China supported us during the most difficult part of our struggles against colonialism and Apartheid. In the 1950s, Nelson Mandela's friend Walter Sisulu came here, sent to meet the leadership of China, asking for support for struggle for freedom. And Chairman Mao and the leadership of China never hesitated to offer this support. They actually went on to train some of our freedom fighters on military colleges in the beginning of the 60s.

So that has been the long established relationships of trust, political trust is very important. Now under President Xi Jinping and President Cyril Ramaphosa, we are taking this relationship to even higher levels. What makes it even more, is that President Xi had a successful state visit last year, which took these relations to even higher level, where they said let's align our key programs for better implementation of our strategic comprehensive partnership. First, we align the South African economic and reconstruction and recovery program, as well as the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative, because these talk to each other. And thirdly, they described our relationship of political trust as a relationship of brothers and comrades, which show the high level of trust between our leaders and our leading political organization. So our political relations are solid.

Our economic relations are strengthening. And now we're focusing on people to people exchanges. Just to put the economic ones, for instance, into perspective, when we established the relations in 1998 on January 1st, opened the office in Beijing, the trade between South Africa and China was about 1 billion US dollars. In 25 years it grew to over 56 billion dollars. That's massive, from 1 to 56. And the investment part as well, South African companies are investing here, Chinese companies are also investing in South Africa. And there's a complementarity about this volume of investment. Now China is one of the large investment partners in South Africa. China has been the largest trading partner of South Africa since 2009. And South Africa is the largest trading partner from the African continent of China since 2010, which shows the strength of our economic ties and relations.

However, last year, your trade minister Wang and my trade minister Patel met, and they met again this year in March in Beijing, where there is a common agreement that we have to balance our trade. In order to balance the trade we agree that we should bring more value added products from South Africa, there's agreement between our government and our president on this matter. And we're very happy that last year when our vice president met your vice president here in Beijing to do binational commission, assessing our progress of work, he also visited Shanghai Expo and we had about forty South African companies which just display their value added products in the Shanghai expo. And we continue this work. The key element, basically between us now is how do we work with each other to help each other in terms of new digital economy, modernization of our economy and also coping with global challenges like climate change. We are working very well on this.

So we can see growing strength in all aspects of our relations. We're very happy that there are many South African students who are studying in China. The cooperation on health, the cooperation on science and technology is getting stronger. We're very happy that South Africa is among the first countries where post covid China open for group tourism, because to us, Chinese tourists coming South Africa is a top priority of my president.

So these are the things we only see that there will be more win-win cooperation between our people, our governments and our companies in this respect. And that's what we do on a daily basis to keep this relationship going, and we never get tired, we continue to take it higher to higher levels. And that's why we’re able, even on the continent, to agree to work on joint projects to assist the integration of Africa, the peace in Africa, we’re working with China. Your President Xi Jinping, and my President Ramaphosa met with African leaders at the sidelines of the BRICS summit in South Africa, where these matters were discussed in detail. In November last year, as President Xi promised, one of the key elements which was stifling the African countries was the access of their agriculture products, because they didn't have scientists to certify safety of their food. President Xi Jinping promised to offer training, called a meeting in Hainan province in the south in November, we show that what our leader say, it's done. They don't just give false promises. So we can see this relationship getting stronger and stronger from all elements, from economic, to people to people and the political.

Guancha: BRICS is definitely one of the key elements of the relationship. This year, what the world's attention is focused on is Russia's BRICS Summit. So how do you think it will inherit the message or the spirit of South Africa's BRICS Summit last year. And what has been your role in fostering this?

Ambassador Cwele: Thank you very much. We had a very successful BRICS summit, against all odds last year. Some people thought the BRICS was going to collapse, not going to meet. It was a first meeting of leaders post covid. It happened just after the sanctioning of Russia and pressure on the Russian president. But the summit succeeded, because we got common vision as BRICS countries.

We are different countries, with different system, but what binds us is very key and very important. We believe that the global governance system needs to be reformed and represent the current reality. We also strongly believe that the international and global financial systems must be reformed to reflect the current realities of trade and not just post World War situation, because a lot has changed since then. So these are things, much as we've got different system, which bind us together. As BRICS, we don't take decision by voting, we take decisions by consensus. Our leaders always find ways to reach consensus. People think that this takes time; consensus doesn't take time when there's political trust. As an example, last year, we have not finalized how we will admit new countries, but there was so much pressure from developing south to join BRICS. And we have not finalized the criteria because one of the criteria is we should not divide countries of the Global South. But our leader they found consensus, and then invited six countries, that they can join at the beginning of this year if they wish, as they are countries that have applied. So it is through consensus and consensus can be reached easily when there's political trust, and you stick to the thing you agree upon.

We do not emphasize things which would create differences. We emphasize things where we unite as BRICS countries, and that's what has impressed most developing countries. That's why there are so many applicants, I want to join. Over 25 countries expressed interest last year, and I'm sure there will be more countries expressing interest as we go to Russia.

Because the reality is that countries of the Global South are facing certain challenges, and they see some good elements within the BRICS system, they've seen that even the BRICS bank we formed, it helps us to develop our own infrastructure, it helps us with the contingency reserve when we have shocks like Covid, we're all able to draw from those contingency reserves as BRICS countries, and they can see the infrastructure we're building using our own financing instrument, which doesn't come with such huge and constraining conditionalities like the current international financial system. It is in this respect that the Russian Federation has prioritized international monetary and financial system reform to reflect the current realities. And we support them on this. However, we say that all this must be transparent and so that it must also support the development and trade of the developing countries. That's only proviso, but there's a general consensus. There's a task team which is working on this system. And we are confident that they will produce a workable report to our leaders to adopt at the Russian summit later this year.

Guancha: Something else that Global South countries have particularly paid great attention to is the war in Gaza. South Africa has filed a suit against Israel in the Hague, accusing them of genocide. This has surprised some countries that it's South Africa leading this and not a Muslim country. So why is South Africa taking such a strong stance? And what do you think of the western opposition to your stance?

Ambassador Cwele: Firstly, we don't see the war in Gaza as a religious war. We see it as basically blatant ignoring of international law. And because we have been very clear, we have been engaging the Israeli government even before we took them to court. We told them that what you're doing, we think you're committing genocide. We don't agree with Hamas, what they did, attacking your citizen, taking hostage, or killing people. We still believe very strongly in the two state solution, and we think this is the most viable solution for you to live side by side with each other. And as a matter of principle, we are against indiscriminate or collective punishment. If you want to fight Hamas, you don't go and kill innocent civilians. You don't go kill children and women. You don't destroy hospitals. You don't go and destroy the economic infrastructure, which is supporting the people of Palestine. That has been the matter of principle to us. And we're saying to a country like Israel, which has a history of experiencing genocide, they should even more sensitive to this.

But we're not heard. To us, the issue of international solidarity is the principle under which our democracy was founded. To remember Nelson Mandela, he said we will never be free until people of Palestine are free, because we know what it’s like to be oppressed. If you’re an oppressor, it is easy to forget. But if you’re on the receiving end it’s difficult to forget. We can forgive even those who oppress us, but we would stand up to the evil head of racism, blatant abuse of human rights, which are guaranteed by international law, we will stand up.

And we took this decision as a method of principle. And we'll continue to stand by the side of those who are weak, because we knew this decision was not gonna go well with some of the big powers for instance. But to us, we said, if we have to suffer the consequences, we will suffer those consequences. But you cannot keep quiet because we know the pain of being attacked. You know, it took time even for UN to define apartheid as a crime against humanity. But it was through united effort of all peace loving people in the world who describe apartheid as a crime against humanity. In that way, they could mobilize international support. So we've got experience on these things. Indiscriminate killing of the people of Palestine, just because Hamas has attacked some of your bases, it's a crime against humanity, because they are trying to eliminate these Palestinian people. They are trying to eliminate any Palestinian who live in that Gaza strip. That’s wrong. So that's what we stand for.

Yes, we did receive some threats from some of the big countries with our trade, we have calculated the losses, we told them, if you’re gonna come and bully us with the threat that you’ll withdraw your trade with us, you might as well do it. We know how to suffer, but we'll find a way. But luckily, they didn't go to such extent. But the bullying tactics and the bullying politics should stop. And we’re really happy that the international community is really making a huge call, that the only way to solve conflict is through dialogue. We should stop that indiscriminate bombing of the people of Gaza. We should stop the killing of innocent people, children, women, the famine they're facing now. That's why we took this to the international court. We are happy that they’re listening to us. We’re still pushing and presenting our case. We’re happy that more and more countries are seeing this, not only Arab, because it's not a religious thing, is a matter of how do we deal with international law. Israel is a member of this international law system. South Africa is a member. And that system says, if one of your member does this, you must report, you can take them to this court.

Now, the challenges is they see this thing as if we are attacking Israel, but it is also to protect our UN system, because that's the only viable system we have globally, the UN system. We cannot allow it to collapse. The first UN system is called league of nation, and we know how it collapsed: It is when big powers were protecting their friends and allowing them to do wrong things or genocide elsewhere, that it caused the previous UN system to collapse, and we're not gonna allow this current of UN system to collapse.

Guancha: On the upcoming South African elections. Polls show your party, ANC, is likely going to be fall below 50% for the first time, and your former President Zuma is playing a counter-productive role in this, from your party’s perspective. What do you think about this election and how do you think the international community should look at this?

Ambassador Cwele: South Africa has established the principles and institutions that support our democratic system. And we are very confident on this, that these systems, both our legal system and Independent Electoral Commission, will conduct this election on the 29th of may and create a peaceful transition. All our elections have been peaceful despite the gloom the international community thought it was. We just voted this weekend at our embassies abroad, including here in Beijing, Hong Kong and Shanghai, they were always smooth and we believe the 29th will also be smooth.

On the issue of prediction, over the last three elections, all the predictions were that the current ruling party will go below 50%. And that has not happened, fortunately, all these polls, I don't know, because they're done by critical people, they were all wrong. We still believe they are wrong. But whatever happens, the outcomes of the elections are determined by the voters. It is the voters who gonna make their voice heard on the 29th. And we still believe that there will be some form of continuity, because ANC has been the anchor of stability in South Africa. It's not only a fear of international communities, a fear also of African brothers, because they also have this feeling. But we assure them that with the systems we’ve built, they're transparent, they're strong enough, and the voters will make their decisions.

On the issue of the former president, who is still a member of the ANC, but suspended at that moment, supporting another party or leading another party is not a good thing for the ruling party. But I don't think his support is so big that it may make him as a significant player. The current projected supported by so called polls is about 8%, but we don't know how much he will get. But we believe that the current stability brought by the leading party, and the projected stability, because look at the manifesto, it will convince many people that continuity is very important because we're a young country. We never thought that, with the challenges we face because of apartheid of over 342 years of colonialism will be eliminated just in 30 years, but we've made progress. We have delivered basic services as a government. We have transformed South Africa to be a united country from a divided country. Those are major achievements in just a few years, and we believe that we will continue with these projects, and at a greater pace even after elections, so that we continue to play our role, not only domestic but at the international level, where countries like China are pushing for peaceful development, peaceful coexistence and cooperation and solidarity among nations.

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